This is a post that tries to answers some beginner daygamer questions. It’s rough and raw and rambly… but it shares my experience.
One notable part of this trip for me has been hanging out with Root. Root is daygamer, and has been my wingman this week here in Tokyo. It’s has been excellent to share the sidewalks with him.
I met Root in a Starbucks, my first week here, when I had a cold, and was still too sick to get my approaches started. He and another guy were talking about girls and game. I thought Root was the other guy’s coach, actually. So I asked. Told him I love talking about game and I couldn’t help but overhear their conversation. Good chat, we exchanged WeChat contacts. I offered to take him out on the sidewalk, which he hadn’t done before.
Meanwhile… I have gotten some emails from other guys that read this blog asking about my recommendations for getting started in daygame. A guy I will call Howard and I exchanged an email or two (You know who you are. Most of this post is based on your questions. Thanks, man.). And another guy I’ll call James (Didn’t reply to you yet, James, but this post is for you too, and has your questions in it).
It’s been cool to get some email. But I’d rather put those responses here where they can serve more of us, than try to do it one at a time via email.
Back to Root… so cool to watch that guy show real interest. He has shown up four times on the street with me in the last week. I told him I’d share anything I know, but he had to promise he’d do some approaches, and he has! He’s not bad at all. I’m impressed. He is approaching and stopping cute girls on the street. He is also very smart, and asking excellent questions. It’s been a real pleasure.
Root is going to be awesome. I’m very happy to be around to demo some approaches for him and push him toward next steps I think will help his game. I’m also sharing some of my wipe-outs with him, including talking to him about a really awkward date I had that went wrong the other night. The game has its ups and downs.
It’s been cool to coach a bit… but it’s also been very cool to have him as my wing. He has seen me get blown out. But he also saw me take four sets of contacts in a row yesterday, in some pretty hot sets… the last one, I held her little 21 year old hand for as long as I wanted. She turned 21… on Monday. I’ve watched him stop girls, get blown out too, but also look very natural most of the time.
Root, this is going to work for you. You’re gonna have fun with this. And you’re gonna get laid.
I want to share. I am not a formal coach, but I want to help my brothers. Daygame is about having girls and wet pussy in our lives… but as my friend Riv says, it is also about comradery. About helping each other out.
That means me helping Root. Just like Runner, and Yohami, and more recently Stealth, have helped me. Face to face and via the comments here.
With that said, below is a conversation I put together based mostly on the questions and comments Howard sent me. I am posting this here for him, but also for other guys that might want a peek at this kind of conversation. I hope some of this is helpful. This is my POV, from where I sit on this path, today, as an “intermediate” daygamer, and a man that loves women.
I have a lot to learn. And much of this may be wrong. But this is where I’m at today.
Okay… here are the notes from my conversation with Howard:
>> What do you recommend for someone interested in Daygame?
>> I’m interested in a good guide from approach to securing a good phone number that will followup up and meet. I’m good with the meet and after that.
For a basic overview with some real detail, maybe check out the Daygame Blueprint from Daygame.com. If you like to study, that is a good resource that goes thru the basic model, with hours of demos and talk about daygame from the London Daygame Model (LDM).
^ That is “how to.”
Also… check out Tom Torero’s beginner daygame video. It’s free, and pretty good. I like it. Great place to start.
If you’ve ever read the blog, I obviously like Krauser, very much. He is a hero of mine (for game, not politics… but sometimes politics). His blog is great… I’ve learned so much from that source. His “Nitro” was his first product. Check that out. It’s lighter than his next book… Daygame Mastery. Mastery is very good, but more advanced. I read it, I own a hardback copy. I will read it again soon. He is very good. I think I have a lot to learn from that book.
Paul Janka did a piece called “how to get laid in NYC.” He has his own model. Paul is an excellent resource. He is very good looking, but we can still learn from him. He is more of a high volume guy, but you can see if you can pick anything up there. Let him supplement your education.
Back to Krauser… his Black Book, is a basic overview, I believe. Check it out. Video series. Then Overkill, is excellent. I’m a fan.
Then there are many good examples from the Daygame.com guys. More infield stuff. I like Jon Matrix Effortless, good infield with breakdowns, Tom is the “host.” Much better for pure daygame than his Stealth Seduction product. Yad did a product with Gambler as the host, also worth watching.
Howard, I think you mentioned Date Against the Machine, and that is a perfect example. I forgot that one.
For inspiration, read Tom’s “Daygame” and Krauser’s “Balls Deep.” Those books read more like novels, not “hot to,” but were significantly inspiring to me. Both those guys have follow-ups to those books that are also excellent. Get you fired up.
There is a lot more, but start there.
Okay… and then… you need to approach. Min 100 girls a month. 200 is better. That is a lot, I know. But this is much, much harder if you don’t take volume. Volume is everything. Embrace it. It will be fun. I promise.
Normal mission to start is:
— approach, compliment, leave.
Do that for the first 30 girls. Give the compliment, look cool if you can, and leave. Stay if you want, but that’s a great way to get going.
I am in Tokyo… I had a day recently where I got blown out maybe 19 times in a row… then took a number from the hottest girl I’ve ever approached. Took 4 more numbers after that. Dating some of those girls… I am dating every night this week in Tokyo… all daygame. I am 43, girls are 22-31. But I am doing a lot of volume. And it is very, very fun. And I am learning fast.
But notice how I had to get thru 19 blowouts before I stuck gold that day. And then… it was a very good day, and was a positive thing for me.
I promise you will have better days, better reactions, when you commit to 10+ girls per day you go out. I do 10-20 girls a day at home… and big days are almost always better. I’m doing 30+ in 2-3 hours here, because the talks are quicker… because of the language barrier… and there are so many girls on the street here. You will often need to warm up, each day. It’s normal. High volume.
>> Should I hire a coach? (From James)
Hmmm. I have hired two coaches in my life.
Dj Fuji, in 2014, I think. This was for nightgame. He is a “pickup 1.0” character, famous for his 2 foot mohawk (because he is short). I hired him for a one-night bootcamp. I didn’t like him (he is a dick), and I don’t think I learned much from him… but that’s not his fault. You can’t teach a guy game in a night. I had a good time, fooled around that night, took some numbers, and made out with a girl. He pushed me into sets I never would have opened. I got some reference experience I never would have had, because he would not let me leave a set unless I was told to leave, or brushed off twice. I felt a little validated that I did relatively well that night (there were like 10 community guys in the bar we were in, that bar sucked, and they all saw me making out, whatever). Meh.
And I hired Yad this past summer, because I just happen to see him on the street while I was out running game in my hometown. I hired him for one afternoon. I did learn somethings there, but I was much more experienced, and I could ask better questions, and he didn’t have to spend anytime on the basic stuff. I had the basics down (maybe 900 approaches at that point in my game), and he could give me more interesting feedback.
If you’re at a basic level, I think you can get started with the stuff I am referencing here. If you’re paying a guy to point out the most basic stuff and to make you talk to your first 50 girls, I think you’re wasting your money. Talk to 200 girls, and then think about it.
And if you do hire a coach… think about some kind of ongoing thing, if possible. I think seeing a coach every 2 weeks for 8 weeks would be much, much better than a weekend. You need time to digest and practice, then get corrected again.
If you have money to piss away and have access to a great coach, awesome, do it. But if not, you can find enough direction here, do some approaches, and then see how you feel. Approaching will teach you more than anything else.
Check out the ideas here, and try them in the field. Look at some videos of guys doing this. And then run volume. Volume is the best coach.
Down the road, you can find some excellent nuance from a coach or sharing with other smart guys. Yohami has been a gift to me. But I would never have been able to understand what he was saying if I didn’t have hundreds of hours of experience of my own.
>> 1. Daygame.com Conference? – Are you referring to “Daygame Blueprint With Andy Yosha and Yad”
Yeah. Pretty good program.
>> The length of interactions with women in Daygame seems long. I watched some other Daygame programs showing Jon, Tom and Yad with Date Against the Machine and Effortless. I noticed at times the conversation would lull or something was said the girl didn’t like and she said she had to go but they would pull the conversation back. Instead of keeping it short and light and leaving on a high note they were not afraid to go through the normal highs and lows of trying to have a conversation with a stranger in the middle of a busy street. My guess is that through “trial and error” this extra time in conversation is to “set the hook deeper”? So she gives you her number and also so she will actually meet you. Instead of an opener and then saying “nice to meet you, I have to get back, but I’d like to get your number and invite you out sometime”?
You’re on the right path with these questions, man.
Yeah, conversations aren’t always spicy. That’s normal. There are lulls. Part of being a cool guy is not panicking in a lull.
And there is no right answer to how long the initial approach should be.
Yes, I think a little more time makes the situation more solid. I don’t think you need 10 minutes, but if it’s fun (and very often it really is), why not? It can feel weird (to me) to ask for the number too quick… there is no context. As one of the Love System’s guys said in some product, “you haven’t demonstrated enough value to ask for that kind of compliance yet.” I bet that is true some of the time (depending on how cool you can be in two minutes).
You do run a risk of “burning out” the initial magic, or creating friction by keeping her from wherever she was going. We know some girls will insta-date (I’ve done four on this trip to Japan, maybe 4 of 6 times I’ve asked), but not all girls have all day to chat. It takes calibration to know when that is smart option. Most girls, you will let them go, and let them go relatively quickly.
If you read my post about the Velvet Mouth mom… I had maybe two minutes with her, maybe less, took her number, she really liked me (still does), and sex on the second date. So… short interaction, led to sex. I’ve seen long, deep, involved interaction’s go nowhere. Big range in results, much of which is unpredictable. Don’t overthink it. Just get back to approaching.
>> leaving on a high note
This is always a great idea. Short or long conversation, it’s a good idea to CLOSE HER on a high note. In fact, I had a little breakthrough on this here on my trip to Japan. Check out the post on “how to escalate.” Great comments from Yohami and Tyler from RSD that explain why a high note is so powerful. It is more nuanced and powerful than I could understand earlier on my path.
>> I’ve heard in daygame many numbers never turn into dates. Is this true?
Ha. Yes… many, many numbers do not turn into dates. Most. Like 70-90%. This is true of every kind of approach, especially if you’re doing real volume and not cherry picking dates here and there. If you’re good and attractive, girls will have fun in that moment, but that doesn’t mean they want to fuck you… at least not after they’ve had a chance to think about it. That is normal and healthy on the girls’ part.
I will rant for a second and say I’ve never liked the word “flake” for numbers that go nowhere. To me “flake” means someone backing out of a commitment of some kind. A girl giving you her contact details is in no way any kind of commitment. I don’t use the word flake, unless she backs out of date she has explicitly agreed to. A girl is not flaking if you had mediocre game, or took a number from a weak set and she never returns your messages. She has broken no commitment. It’s possible our game was weak, and that doesn’t make her a flake… but many of us use the term flake like that.
I will tell you I get 0-5 numbers when I talk to 10-18 girls. That is my “normal.” And you’ll notice there is a big range there.
Some weeks I will do two days of 12 girls per day, get zero numbers. Those weeks can suck, some times. Or they might be fun, but I’m not getting dates, makeouts or sex from a week like that. I also haven’t had a week like that in a long time. Maybe October? Or September? But I had plenty last summer.
Of those approaches, let’s say I get three leads, not that unusual that none will date me. Maybe two respond, one chats for bit and then disappears when I ask for the date. This is all normal (at least for where I am in game). Other times… three of three will date me within five days of when I took the number. Also normal.
Big range in results. Expect that.
I like to say this is like poker… some of this is skill, some is the cards you are dealt. Work your program and you’ll win over time. But sometimes to get shitty cards. Other times… all aces. Big range. But experience will help you manage the cards you do get. That’s where you need to focus.
>> an opener and then saying “nice to meet you, I have to get back, but I’d like to get your number and invite you out sometime”?
If you want short approaches, I’d reference “How to get laid in NYC.” Janka. I love him, great mind in street seduction. And he likes very short initial pickups, two minutes. He is also very smart and good looking. And… he is in NYC, with incredible amount of girls. So he runs a more high volume, low-depth game (initially). He’s worth studying. Very smart guy. His good looks aren’t that much of his game, IMAO. He is a genius in terms of game… he has several products out and some talks at conferences. All are good.
>> how simple these guys are. People like Mystery and Style were so complicated. Watching Effortless you see a lot of it is about just getting started and then having good Social IQ.
Agreed. Krauser is more complicated, but I also think he is more real. He is extremely smart. I’m a huge fan. I think he is harder to learn from, but has much more to teach. My opinion.
>> I think it’s 33% a strong open, 33% keeping the conversation going, 33% a strong but simple close or insta-date.
You’re on the right path, man.
I would give you a different angle… but I’m not saying what you said is wrong.
I think VERY HIGH VOLUME is the base of all this. Be original, be real, be vulnerable as you approach… but run high volume. That will give you opportunity to find girls that are warm to you (“yes girls”), and will give you a lot of experience. Experience is where the real power comes from. You can only get experience from volume.
I wrote a post about social calibration, building off of something Krauser was talking about. Maybe give that a read.
In the end… it’s about you as a man. Your life, but also your experience (with yourself and with women). That is actually what makes a stop happen or not. It’s the quality of the man, of course. You will develop yourself overtime.
As to that last part, both Riv and I spend a lot of time talking about how we are always gaming ourselves. That is very smart way to think about it. Instead of getting the girl to fuck you, how do you know you are fuckable?? And then get out there and show that fuckablity off? This is not about the girls. They are a side effect of being a better man.
Good points to ponder.
>> I like the idea of a simple compliment. That has always been my sticking point is not knowing how to get it started and comfortable doing it. So many times I see a girl and not know what to say.
See that Tom Torero link I posted above… very good for this.
The other thing I would say is that the best approaches are when you actually feel something for the girl.
I call this the difference between being into her with your “eyes or your head” vs “your heart and your cock.” The latter is more real… and you’ll have more to say. I think that is important.
I’m convinced many guys are hitting on a girl because they “think” she is hot, not because they have any real, personal, raw hunger for a given girl. Like they are going after what society thinks is hot, and then have nothing to say as that maybe isn’t really what turns them on. It’s no wonder they can’t find anything to say. Krauser talks about the DNA tug. I think he is saying something similar there.
I have opened girls “mechanically,” before. Because I was trying to hit some kind of personal quota for the day (and having a quota has merit, in many ways), or because I thought she was hot, but couldn’t find a “story” to open her about (Krauser helped me get the “story” concept… See his Mastery, and I think there is material on that in Black Book and Overkill).
I have had some of those “empty” approaches work, but usually they are flat. When they work, it’s because I opened her, and then something authentic happened. She lit up, and then I suddenly felt something real or personal for her. And I worked with that.
This is how I see it… I’m sure other guys have a different way to think about it.
I would really encourage you to focus on girls that really draw you in, where the story, or even a comment, just comes to you. Those are my favorite approaches.
Root (a young guy I have been doing a little light coaching with in Tokyo) did this very naturally on the street last week. He saw some girl and I asked him what story came to mind, and he said “sassy” very quickly. That was perfect. Then you run over and say, “I know this is a bit unusual, but I saw you walk by and you had this great sassy flare to you, I wanted to say hi.” The realness of it, the immediacy helps it work. It’s not a line. It’s the truth. And she can feel it.
RSD Julian talks about the importance of being real. As often as you can… aim for that. Scripts are hollow.
I feel like the footage I’ve seen from Krauser is very personal. I like that about him. I want my approaches to be personal. I say the same things to girls over and over too. But the examples from Krauser in Overkill… I have learned a lot from that guy. He’s solid.
This is Krauser style, its real, its deeper… one way to think about it.
>> You also mentioned you date every night. I’m in the process of building my business to travel and do this more. I want to get good at this so I can daygame when I travel but also for 1 or 2 dates a week in the meantime. I don’t have time to juggle anymore for now.
I only **sometimes** date every night (now, last Fall, a couple of other times in my life)… ongoing, I think that’s too much, out of balance. We’re not fulltime like the pro’s are, and we oughtn’t expect our lives to look like theirs.
I’m in a period of heavy investment and learning right now. My pace here in Tokyo is not sustainable. I am loving it, but I don’t pretend I can (or want) to be at this pace forever (even though at this moment I wish I was completely full time with this, I have for months, and I’ve been close to fulltime in terms of hours of approaching/texting/dating). I’m having a good time. I won’t do this pace for ever. I know that.
Dating one to two times per week is amazing. 2 dates a week based on offering a woman your masculine realness via cold-approach, via direct approach, via daygame… that’s fucking awesome. That puts you in a rare category of men.
If you want to binge on experience like I am doing now, do it. It will really help you learn more, and much faster (and many lessons are only available to you when you have abundance, I am creating abundance by doing a lot of game in concentrated periods, creating what I call Girl Tornadoes). Do that a bit, if you can.
As for travel… travel is grossly overrated. For me, it’s like showing off. Gaming in your city is the real bread/butter. Do that. If your city sucks, move. Seriously.
There is nothing wrong with hitting on girls on the street when you travel, but it is NOT the way to learn. I don’t recommend it for beginners at all. Travelling is harder. I am doing this to test myself, not because this is the goal.
I also have a big hard on for Japanese girls. So this is indulgent. I live in CA, and have plenty of hot Asian girls in my city. That’s where I should get good.
And the only reason I am good here, is because I put in all those hours at home. This is an important point.
The London guys travel because London girls are kind of gross (I hear), they want FSU girls, for their femininity, and sheer genetic gifts. Many pickup guys are also making money via remote work and passive income of some kind, and can have a lower cost of living by going outside of major Western cities. Hotter girls, lower cost of living, not a bad deal.
But if you have ties to some city, and can handle the cost of living, do that. Don’t worry about travel. Travelling is “razzle dazzle.” Don’t get distracted.
>> What would you recommend to a dude your age with 0 experience do to just get started in Tokyo? (From James)
I wouldn’t recommend you try to learn in a foreign place. I did 500 approaches at home before my first trip to Tokyo. No way I could have started in Tokyo… not me, anyway. Tokyo would have made the whole thing harder, and harder to “troubleshoot,” as I would have introduced some many extra variables based on location, language, culture, and my nerves at being in a strange place.
With that said, for my trip in 2015… I did a lot of approaching, over a short period of time, and that greatly improved my game back home. 500 before I went on that trip. 80 in Tokyo, in 3 weeks, which was a lot for me then. And I did another 400+ approaches once I got home before I even got laid from a daygame approach (I was getting laid elsewhere, but not like I am now).
I was a hard case. I don’t think everyone needs 1000 approaches. But Krauser did (I believe he says so in Balls Deep, which is a fun read).
Without doing the 1000 approaches I did mostly at home, I would be nothing here.
Hunting on your own territory is where it’s at. That’s where you are a master. You should shine on your home turf, or it is unlikely you will shine elsewhere. When you’re very good, test yourself on a holiday, but that is not the way to find the best ROI from this work.
I put some comments on Roy Walker’s blog about how he should do one-month minimum stays per country. I say that, as longer stays get you closer to the mastery you should have in your city. When we offer women mastery, we are more attractive… hard to do that when you don’t know where the fuck you are.
I am doing well in Japan, but I spent a lot of time working out my logistics here. Places to eat, drink, bounce to, etc. I have real social proof everywhere I go here, many friends in terms of bars/restaurants/cafes, etc. Again, so I am as slick, organized, and well connected as I am at home. All of this takes time.
If you don’t plan to date at all, just pull home… I guess logistics are less important. But most guys can’t “only” pull off the street. Stealth might be an exception, and I’m sure there are more. I know a guy in my town that pulls off the street straight back to his house, but I think that’s low yield game and would be a very tough way to learn. Tom Torero and Krauser both talk about how 3-date sex is pretty normal. A lot of lays go down like that, and you need logistics if you’re going to look cool dating.
I think it is true… but I have never taken a girl off the sidewalk straight to my house. I have had SDLs, but never “bounce, bounce, sex.” I will do this eventually, but I have not yet.
>> I’m thinking now to keep learning about approaching, and my goal for Feb is to do 100 compliments and see where they go. I’ll mark them down in a notebook. If I can just get over this approach anxiety by complimenting 1200 women in a year that would be amazing for me alone.
This is a fantastic plan.
I have been in game for YEARS… and daygame did more for me than anything else.
For instance, I had literally thousands of approaches in bars/clubs/cafes, and still had some real AA. It took me about 200 daygame approaches, and I lost my AA. They were all direct. I don’t fuck around with indirect. But after 200 approaches OVER A SHORT PERIOD OF TIME, something in me changed. I had some good experiences in those first 200, but many were “pure heart attack.” Tons of blowouts. That’s normal. But then… I started to get it. It became fun. It became about giving those girls a good experience.
I still get blown out a lot, but I don’t have AA. That is an amazing thing to say. I have always been reasonably social, but I had AA just like everyone else. It’s gone. Part of it was cleaning myself up as a man, knowing this was about being who I wanted to be, and that I was here to give these girls good experiences… not take from them. And part was just working thru my beginner’s nerves.
You won’t need 1200 approaches to get over AA. Some AA is always there (very little for me now though, I must say, and I am not special). You should be getting laid by 1200 girls, for sure. It took me 1000, but I think I was a hard case. My next lay was within, 200. Then two more lays in the next 200. In Tokyo, I think I am on pace to close two to five girls in my 200 approaches here (don’t know if I’ll have time to work them all through the model).
And compliments are a great place to start. I bet, in your first 20 compliments, you’ll have a couple of good conversations, where the girl loves the approach (if not you). That will give you the positive feedback you need to keep going. I have been thanked hundreds of times. I’ve also been hugged, kissed, etc. Not all of them, but many, love it.
Do high volume days, especially when you’re in a good mood. Don’t cherry pick a girl here/there, I don’t think you’ll get the positive reference experience you need from that kind of game. Big days warm you up and “magic” starts to happen.
You will need positive feedback and if you’re at all normal, you’ll get it. But you are more likely to get it after you’ve warmed up. Again, volume. High-volume within a given day, and also within a given month. I think two to three days a week is what you want to get this in your blood.
>> I like how you mentioned it is fun. I can see this.
It really is. Not every approach. Some approaches, the rejection is so cold, it hurts. Welcome to being a man. Even here in Tokyo, I feel so solid, but I get blown out a LOT, and some are quite harsh. Who cares. Those are not the girls that matter.
Be nice. Girls are totally allowed to reject us at any stage of the seduction. Good for them. But live big, man. You will get more out of life, and so will the girls you lead on these romantic adventures. This is good stuff. Beautiful, and life changing.
>> I just have to get over the hump of starting. I feel I have the rest.
I’ll end with this… you will be surprised just how little you know. Get ready for that.
This rabbit hole of girls and game is so fucking deep. I think I am barely scratching the surface. I am at 1400 approaches and had many “first” in the last two weeks. The learning curve is long.
Look at the comments on this blog from Yohami, and more recently by Stealth… we have no idea what those guys know. Krauser and Janka. We have no idea the level/depth of experience those guys have. RSD Tyler… we’ll never know what he knows.
My Tokyo trip has been ridiculously rich, so many approaches (200 in a month?), so many leads (30+?… I’ll total them all up later), hundreds of text messages, so many dates… it’s doing this over years that begins to open your eyes. Most of us have a lot of baggage to unpack before we can even start to really see until we’ve done a lot of work. It takes a long time to settle down. Keep an open mind, you’ll be surprised.
This is long, but worthy journey. Make yourself a better man. Do this for you. Give these girls good experiences (that is much more than just being “nice,” nice is not what I’m saying at all).
All of this is for you. As you invest in yourself, the girls will come thru as well. This is not about the girls. It’s about being who we want to be as men. It is about living big and taking girls with us. If we are not on that path, we have nothing to offer these women.
Good on you for getting after this. Have fun.